Heaven’s Gate—Sawyer Responds
The following are verbatim responses from former Heaven’s Gate member Sawyer, after he read the section on Heaven’s Gate in my book, Crossing the Event Horizon—Human Metamorphosis and the Singularity Archetype. Sawyer remains a staunch believer in Heaven’s Gate principles.
I haven’t studied the Archtypes though I did listen to a spokesman for that system on WBAI radio in NYC from 1998- while I lived on Stonybrook, NY and commutted to my programming job in Westbury, NY. So it’s not foreign to me but I admit not able to really speak in it’s terminologies. For instance to me “Dark Side” is of course an interpretation and negative judgement. I would argue there was nothing evidenced as negative to any student or the two teachers except for what people believe because of only hearing what the media said about them and their final choice to lay down their vehicles bodies. What next to know one so far has been able to hold onto about this story is maintaining the question, “what if they were right”. With that said, knowing that is not an easy thing at all to think and maintain consciousness of for many reasons, the evidence of what I am saying is in the over 1000 audio tapes TI and DO recorded of many of their meetings from 1982-1997. However, I proceed that most people think of them and what they did by self exiting as “Dark” but it would be impossible in my view to make that case when they hear all the facts regardless of what one is willing to believe or not about them. Context isn’t everything but it’s close to it. So case in point. If one wants to know the truth about DO’s meeting TI, they would go to the Heaven’s Gate book on Heavensgate.com and download it at the bottom of the Book page. It comes in a zip file and is straight text. Then in it search for “88 Update – The UFO Two and Their Crew” and you will have the truth. Top of that I am first hand witness to DO telling that story of their meeting as early as 1978 or so with TI sitting right next to him. Then again in 1992 DO told the story on the first Beyond Human – The Last Call video tapes that are easy to find. Then again in a meeting in Inverness, California we have an audio tapes in 1994 while we were split into some 6 groups holding face to face meetings again for the first time since 1975-1976 doing so. Ti wasn’t still in her human vehicle after 1985 but she would also say things. They said things in the years from 1975 that were not recorded, a great deal. Students didn’t compare notes. It’s in our memories if we tap them if not we lose them it seems. Now I was present for each of these times, there is new information in every instance, significant new information. That is because DO never made what he was going to say into a presentation the way humans do all the time. He did 99.99999% of the material for all the meetings by using his own mind and in conjunction with TI’s mind (before they came to talk to us), at very rare times conversing in whispers about something at the meeting on whether to bring it up or not and choosing not to some times because of what they said to one another. TI didn’t feel right about it. The rare occasions like 3-4 to be generous in my 19 year memory) were limited to keywords, like he used a bit during the Beyond Human video taping. As we know well in basic psychology of humans, it’s hard to be a liar, especially over years time as one forgets what they said back then because it wasn’t based on the truth. So how did all that misinformation get started. It’s that old telephone game. Things get misremembered, misunderstood, supposed to be true, assumed, misinterpreted, etc. Here is my summary of some of what TI and DO said about meeting: They met at a hospital in Houston in 1972 where TI was working in the nursery taking care of premie babies but covered for another nurse in the administrating of medicine to the friend of DO’s who was in that same hospital. Terrie didn’t know that’s where they met. She thought they met at the singing class TI arranged for her vehicles son Joey (I think) to take as DO was a singing instructor. Now there was something about a student getting hurt in or around DO’s class. But DO’s students were in that class I think children so that doesn’t sound like the “sick friend” DO said he was visiting. (I could be wrong but had an impression DO visited his sick friend with someone else). I don’t know what department they were in at the time in the visit. I guess it’s possible it could have been a psyche ward. In that hospital room, as best I can recall TI brought up something about what astrological sign they were born under. That stimulated DO to say he’d been very interested in having his astrological chart done. He learned from that, that TI had no interest in doing his chart unless he really wanted it and this was her policy DO later learned about to wait until someone asked for a chart 3 times to take them seriously (as it wasn’t for money and I don’t know if and what she might have charged). But that meeting was the beginning of a whirlwind to both their lives. At first DO wondered about that time if Bonnie was hitting on him. DO told us a lot of things about what he went through while traveling with TI for that first year or so. It was tough for DO to come to recognize TI was his in all ways of thinking, “Older Member”. TI didn’t ever say that about herself. TI knew that DO’s Mind brought to this planet to take over that vehicle known as Marshall Applewhite had done previous tasks including Adam to start the experiment, Enoch, Moses, Elijah and Jesus. It was only during 1992 making of the Beyond Human series that DO admitted being the same Soul who performed the task known as Jesus the Christ. That was because he knew that Jesus was the name given to that human body that was prepared by the Older Members and crew to be their vehicle to perform that preparatory work for student to graduate by applying.
I neglected to say that DO’s sister must have misunderstood somethijng of if he did check into a rehab or something or had a check up for a heart condition it wasn’t something DO thought about sharing with students. He would have been the first person to say he knew the kinds of thoughts he began to have after meeting TI would render anyone to think they were going crazy. He did say his life began falling apart about a year before he met TI. I still haven’t read all you wrote but I’ll continue to address things as I come to them. There are many things you said that aren’t not backed up by facts. I just mentioned one. I can see why people consider them apocalyptic but the true meaning of that word has to do with a time of great revealing of the truth, what are facts, what is real. And that’s why there has been such a surge in the Information Age in all it’s forms. What DO and Crew said in their website about the companion object was that it was irrelevant whether it was a spacecraft or not. It, the comet, etc. was the “marker” of their exit timing. They had a visit from two beings in 1995 or 1996. It’s in Rio’s book and I don’t doubt it. He said a number of students on the same exact night reported seeing two beings crossing the hallway or standing next to someone in their bunk while they were sleeping. Rio said he dreamed it, seeing two phosphorescent 4 ft tall beings standing by another students bunk. DO felt like he was told to go back to sleep. While 2-3 others individually saw them cross the hallway while they were getting up to use the bath chamber, what we called the bathroom. I did scan your writings and can see many things to say. I don’t deny that there are archtypes of people who others call “seekers” and it can be said they are susceptible and that’s true, but what I don’t know how a scientist thinks about that, is if/when the seekers finds something that satisfies that desire in some way they are not necessarily diminished by their experience though it can become a trap if they cease seeking. I seek to know what’s real, what really happened, what someone really said. I don’t easily state things as facts if I haven’t heard it myself though of course when it comes to politics, etc. I seek multiple sources over time before I form a view of something and that is still changeable if I learn something new.
Zap: Here’s the link I created heavens-gate-sawyer-responds Let me know if you want anything changed, I’m going to read through it now. Thanks again for taking the time to do this, much appreciated!
Thank you for not just writing off things I’m saying. Will anyone that comes to your book see it?
On the subject of Star Trek, it was always just a TV show we watched and we hardly watched it when TI was in her vehicle, not saying why. (While TI was in her vehicle, we watched shows like murder she wrote and matlock and mcGuiver and the A Team. TI liked shows that showed problem solving of mysteries and ingenuous ways of solving those problems. Another was Magnum PI. Those were in the days when we lived in houses and had antenna’s to pick up signals. But most of our star trek viewing was of Next Generation and it had nothing to do with Dstody’s (Destin)’s sister being in the show. We were never like a fan club. When we put up paintings in the houses we lived in, which was to make the house look normal, there were no pictures of star trek around.. DO didn’t usually watch star trek with us. TI never watched any shows with us. He liked the perspective of a crew in space doing tasks and at times helping people and working against negative influences. He didn’t like the human parts of it, like in their relationships, not because they were bad but because they were human and the Class was about becoming members of the Next Level that were not human in behaviors and ways. So DO liked the “prime directive” because the Next Level largely has that policy to not interfer with the free will of the beings that grow on the planets, that is unless they are interfering too much with the growth of beings that were evolving. Then there was the holodeck. DO liked that as he felt the earth was like a holodeck. being the exercising of our minds over matter, over what our vehicles are programmed to think and do. He liked that someone could get physically injured in the holodeck because it’s real, Minds can be injured. He knew that the human kingdom was not designed to work. It was designed to be a “stepping stone” into the next evolutionary level above human. In that context the holodeck could be biological, not just though of as an etheric holographic environment.
Once in a while if DO watched with us, he might ask what others thought stood out in the show. One time he stayed around in that meeting room, normally not “hanging out” (which none of us did) and it was after we watched one of the Star Trek movies we rented that included the Borg. I got kind of surprised when he compared the Borg to the Next Level in the way they were dependant on the Next Level for restoration of their energy by plugging into the craft but also in the way that they kept on performing their tasks despite the hardships or failures. They were selfless in their service. Also that they didn’t die but would come back with a new vehicle to continue their tasks. I was shocked a bit because I saw the Borg as robots and though I knew Next Level Members were not robots at all, I had that program like most of us humans have that we are free and independant and are individuals when we don’t know how influenced and even enslaved many of us are to different degrees which I’ve come to realize since being out of the Class was true.
It’s interesting that being a part of a “hive mind” is seen by many of us as beneath us but feel it depends on who/what we are serving and taping into. Any unit or team works best when every member performs their tasks. That’s how really big tasks can be accomplished. It’s when everyone wants to be the leader that confusion thrives. In the human world most don’t want to be led by anyone, at least consciously but that is good in that context as human leaders are often terrible people.
So star trek had next to no influence upon TI or DO. Just like the bible had little to no influence over TI and DO. They had thoughts and ideas and pulled on them and ran things occurring to them by one another to try to separate out what didn’t make sense to them as having come from the Next Level. They knew the Next Level had worked with humans through the movie industry to help evolve human minds, that has always been in progress since the start of the current civilization on earth.
Zap: I will add your new comments to the page, and would also like to say that I viewed HG and now even more so with your input, quite sympathetically. I see no bad guys in that situation at all. I already stated that certain times of my life I could easily have been drawn in because HG, more than any other group, was directly speaking to the Singularity Archetype that has driven my life. What I wish I could have contributed, but can contribute now, is the understanding of what happens when the Singularity Archetype both inspires and possesses, as it has done for me. I also have a lot of experience, including what appears to be after-death communication with suicide.
I’m updating the page with our latest comments and will continue that. I think if you read my book you will get many insights that validate so many of the themes that HG was working on. You’ll see a perspective that does not view HG as a group that had a bunch of crazy delusions but instead as a group directly inspired by a core archetype that influenced all of humanity.But all archetypes have a light and a dark side. I’ve been influenced by both of those sides and I think HG was as well. As Sophocoles said, “No great gift enters the human sphere without a curse attached.” HG embraced both sides of the archetype.
Sawyer: In the start of the chapter you just sent me it says, “When a person or group becomes possessed by an archetype, the results are often tragic. Another Book of Revelation-inspired example of pathological possession by the Singularity Archetype is the Heaven’s Gate UFO cult, which became infamous for its mass suicide of 39 people in 1997. Its very name, “Heaven’s Gate,” suggests a pseudo-Biblical way of saying “event horizon.”” There was nothing in the Book of Revelation that inspired TI and DO. In 1972 when they met, they went through about a year of struggle with the information they both independent of one another were receiving from some source. When they would have an idea, they would come togerther to see what the other thought about it and would find, especially at that time that they both received the same information. They received most of their “awakening” to this new information (for them) in the first 6 weeks of 1973 while they were living together in Boerne, Texas. From that time they summed it up as: 1) they were both (their new Mind) from what was in reality a physical many membered Kingdom of Beings who were Above Human in all ways – were not mammals – didn’t reproduce, didn’t have sex, gender or racial characteristics (though can have different vehicles of different colors). They knew this was what was written about as the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven, headquarters in the literal heavens. They knew that the membership had physical spacecrafts to travel in but weren’t limited to human physics. 2. They had come, had taken over human vehicles, tagging them when they were babies for their usage. They felt those human bodies would have died had they not tagged them. They came into them very gradually so the bodies mind could adjust to their minds. at that time. It was very difficult for them both to deal with what they were receiving. They felt like they were going crazy and wondered how two people could go crazy in the same ways at the same time. They had no interest in one another. The only thing they did have in common was a “love for their Heavenly Father” but neither was much aware of the Book of Revelations material. They felt they were here to bring updates to the Bible. 3. They felt they were also here to fulfill prophecies but didn’t at that time know what prophecies they would be fulfilling. There was a great deal more happening that one only learns about from the audio tapes when DO occasionally talks about his and TI’s beginning years as he rejected what TI knew. So they hit the road to try to discover what prophecies they were to fulfill. They were traveling in DO’s sports car and heading largely west from Texas and got to Gold Beach, Oregon. They were broke by then so they were painting rocks and carving little crosses to sell to tourists to make enough money to buy cream to live on with the wild blackberries that grew all over the oregon coastal region. (I lived there as well and use to pick those blackberries to eat in the early to mid 1970’s). As they traveled they would stop at libraries and book stores to try to learn about prophecies. They started reading the Book of Revelation and when they came to chapter 11’s talk of the Two Witnesses they wondered if that was talking about them. They hated the idea as they always would meet people who would say they were the reincarnation of Cleopatra, etc. and wanted to get far away from them and now they were faced with being some biblical figures. TI had the greater understanding sometimes. If DO received something TI did not, and would tell TI, TI would recognize it. But when TI received something and told DO, he most always had to adjust to receiving it. He had problems with TI’s lack of intellectualism and speaking ability, diction, vocabulary, things he was some what a master of being an opera singer and music teacher. They also wondered how come if someone claimed to be the reincarnation of Cleopatra (which was a thing then) how come there were others who also claimed the same identity. They also felt claiming to be some biblical figure was a put down as if they hadn’t grown from having experienced that incarnation. They also did not buy the way the Hindus and Buddhists thought about reincarnation. But they felt that Revelation 11 part was describing their tasks. So they made calling cards saying they were the Two Witnesses and they would sheepishly leave a card on a church pulpit and then run out the door. Then one time they went to the Summit Lighthouse in Oklahoma City where Elizabeth Claire Prophet were at that time with her husband and told the receptionist when asked they were the Two Witnesses and wanted to talk to the teachers. The receptionist said that’s impossible as her teachers were the Two Witnesses. So they left somewhat embarrassed and never told anyone after that they were the two witnesses. But they did refer to themselves as The Two and did believe some of how they were described. But one can read the first statement (One) DO wrote while in jail for 6 months, which is part of the Heaven’s Gate Book to see how they did present themselves to the public that was me in 1975. They thought at that time in 1975 that they would demonstrate surviving death like they felt Jesus had. They didn’t say they were Jesus because they said Jesus was the name of the vehicle and that vehicle wasn’t coming back, they felt. (Though there was a strong indication in TI’s first writing from 1973 and 4 that DO was the same Soul who performed the Jesus task). Anyway when the national news broke calling them charlatans and felons (DO), after 3 days thinking their mission was dead as by then in October of 1975 after like 4 public meetings they had about 50 students including me, a number of which soon dropped out. They though their credability was ruined and then realized it was already shot and decided to continue with the students and gathered us and said what the press said and that they felt the “killing in the streets) in the Rev 11 material was done by being “shot down by the press” and they would understand if some didn’t want to follow with them because of that, but for the most part all the students including myself didn’t object to their new understanding. It was like 5 years or so later that DO held a meeting that TI didn’t come to with him. It was the only time over 19 years that DO said to bring whatever bibles we had in our library (that I never looked at after about 1976 until about 1987 when DO thought we might go public again (after nearly 17 years of no public interface). Do said open to Revelation 12 and said the “Woman” is referring to TI and that the Dragon is referring to Lucifer. That was about it. Then in 1992 after examining for several years going public again DO was playing with ideas of how to speak to Christians in their language as he knew they were the second coming they said they were still looking for. Then some of us got into examination of the Revelation materials more but still not much of a focus. It was after I left that I wrote my book largely about the Revelation records.
I can definitely validate the key part of what you just wrote — that Ti and Do were directly inspired and not, as you make the case, derivatively inspired by the Bible or sci-fi material. Instead, they noticed correspondences after their direct revelations and used this familiar material to communicate to others who shared that common cultural background. Where my perspective may diverge from yours partly is that I see the inspiration and revelation coming in from what Jung called the “collective unconscious” of the species from which the archetypes emerge. I also don’t rule out that other beings on the other side of organic life may also have been influencers. But from the perspective I have of Jungian psychology, when inspirations and revelations emerge from the collective unconscious into a person with a body, what you call a “vehicle,” it must pass through layers before it surfaces in conscious attention. It is filtered through the personal unconscious, the body and all its conditioned and genetically programmed tendencies, through all the culture the individual has been exposed to, through the social matrix in which they find themselves, through their personalities and egos, and all of these layers process, amplify, and distort the archetype, which is not a pure white light but contains light and dark within itself. The collective unconscious and archetypes contain vast energy which tends, as it has done and continues to do to me, to promote inflation and a sense of special destiny, a messianic mission, and a need to proselytize the new revelations. It will tend to make those imbued with this energy charismatic and magnetic, as people observed about Ti and Do. The same layering — including a sense of special destiny and a need to proselytize a special revelation — applies to me and my drive to write my books. All I can do is try my best to be conscious of how that works to improve the ratio between inspiration and possession by the Singularity Archetype and other content from the collective unconscious.
Sawyer
I can understand there being a negative side to the archetype and to me that is the way that in the metamorphosis the caterpillar ceases to exist having transformed into the butterfly so from the perspective of the existing caterpillars that observe the death of another caterpillar and that is thought of as Darkness when that is actually quite natural.
Zap: That’s exactly my prespective on the Singularity Archetype, it’s the central idea , and the caterillar to butterfly metaphor is used in the book:
Parallel paradoxes appear when the Singularity Archetype is viewed from the perspective of evolution. For example, from the perspective of the ego, the Singularity Archetype is like the wing of the devil in chapter two, it manifests as the worst thing possible — the end of all things, death and/or extinction as oblivion. From the perspective of the Self, however, the Singularity Archetype is about rebirth. The caterpillar must die to become a butterfly.
Sixty-six million years ago, life on this planet crossed an event horizon when the Earth was impacted by a giant asteroid, and as Terence McKenna described it, “flattened anything larger than a chicken.” From the perspective of the dinosaurs, this was the worst thing possible, the end of days, a steep descent into extinction and oblivion. From the perspective of mammals, this also looked like the worst thing possible when it happened. But the mammalian perspective changed much later when they emerged from the ashes of asteroidal apocalypse to find that they were in a new world without dinosaur competition that was amazingly fertile for their further evolution.
Just went to look for the metaphorosis card from the oracle I created—the Zap Oracle—and found it contained a photo and story from the 2007 National Rainbow Gathering where we might have met! https://zaporacle.com/card/metamorphosis/
Sawyer: You might be interested in the way the word Transfiguration in the New Testament is from the Greek word metamorphos and it was said that Jesus his body change and at first wasn’t recognizable by his own people. He felt that a characteristic of the human body was that if the mind was strong enough could heal the body in 3 days human time. Tiendo both talked about in an audio tape how Adam was actually a Next Level grown body. In other words he had a Next Level body it was not a human body but it became a human body when it got off track and went through a reverse metamorphosis and daddy didn’t take very long for that to happen and that’s why they were able to reproduce. I am doing this message from voice to text so that’s why some of the words may not be right I’m driving so I can’t take the time to correct things
Zap: No worries, and you’re talking about a central part of the Singularity Archetype and the book, what I call “The Will Toward the Glorified Body” If you’re driving you could listen to the rough draft version of the chapter:
https://youtu.be/mNDSt9xeqFg?si=eRgFZcmIgJdLXPru
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